The Failure Gap

Speaker 1 (00:00)
Hello and welcome to the Failure Gap, where we talk with leaders about closing the space between agreement and alignment. We love talking with interesting people and today we're joined by Jon Marcus. Jon spent the early part of his career in a more traditional business setting with companies like MasterCard. He's been in roles like CEO, CMO, and other leadership positions. But his most recent endeavor brings him closer to home, where he joined forces with family members.

to create Rose Sisters Chips, a bootstrapped operation that's dedicated to bringing his family's secret recipe for tortillas to the masses. Jon, welcome to the Failure Gap.

Speaker 2 (00:34)
to be here Julie. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1 (00:36)
Yeah, glad to have you. You you have had such an interesting career path and I would love for you to share with our listeners a little bit about the road that brought you to being involved with Rose Sisters Chips. And I'm actually hesitating to say your role because I don't know exactly what your title is other than favorite son.

Speaker 2 (00:53)
I don't know that there's anything more important than being the favorite son. So I'm going to stick with that. So my path was, as you said, pretty traditional. Out of university and grad school, you I always wanted to be in the corporate world. And for 30 years I was. It was enjoyable for a long time and then frustrating for a long time.

Speaker 1 (00:58)
Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:20)
And I kind of looked back at one point in my career and realized that I had actually made a lot of money for a lot of people and I wasn't one of them. You know, I did fine and comfortable, but you know, I just felt like there should be a greater benefit for the effort and the results. And I decided that I just wanted to do something more of my own. And I kind of toggled over to

consulting for some FinTech startups. was an angel investor in many of them. Interim management, you know, really had my teeth sunk into a lot more of the whole business. And that was exciting, right? That was really, really a lot of fun. And then after a few years of doing that, I realized it still wasn't mine. Right? I mean, I, you know, yes, I had a lot of influence and that was great, but

the final say was with the founders, right? The owners, whether they agreed with me or not. You know, they get the final say. And I kind of wanted more. And so how we got into this was what we manufacture, as you said, are seasoned baked flour tortilla chips. And the original recipe was created by my grandmother 120 years ago.

Growing up with this, we, one, always loved it and two, always brought them to parties and gave them as gifts. And for 40 something odd years, we kept hearing people say, you really, really need to sell this. And for 40 something years, we kind of politely dismissed that because we just figured everybody's nice when it's free. You know, they didn't really mean it, but it was nice to hear.

So fast forward, you know, after my 30, 35 year career, and I was at a point where I really needed something different to do. Like I just had had enough of, you know, consumer banking and credit cards and payments and FinTech. just, I wanted something completely different to learn. And my wife and I brought the chips to a party and someone said those words again and it resonated.

this time, think it was just the timing was right. So I looked at her and I said, well, you know where I am, you know, what do you think? And she said, well, let's, let's talk to your mom because nothing's going to happen without her blessing. So we called my mom that night and she said, I'm good. You know, like, let's, let's do it, but let's kind of find out if it's real. And so what we did is we, we whipped up a batch.

brought it to a little market near where we are here in Connecticut, asked the owner, really nice guy saying, hey, could you just put this out for your customers? Don't solicit them. Just, we want real honest feedback on whether they like it. And he's like, yeah, no, no, no problem. And that was it. You we didn't expect to hear from him. Certainly not in any amount of time. And no joke, Julie, at seven o'clock the next morning on the dot.

He called and he said, okay, we're ready to buy. We're like, what? And he's like, man, they devoured these things. They're ripping the shelves apart, trying to find out where they can buy it. So consider us your first customer. then at that point, you know, obviously having no background in either manufacturing or food, you know, we scrambled, we had to scramble to find out.

How do you do this as a business? And I mean, we took a class at Rutgers in New Jersey, like Food Business 101, and we found a production house because we didn't know how to make it, you know, in large scale. And we were kind of off to the races three months later. And yeah, and there you are, like from banking into tortilla chefs.

Speaker 1 (05:36)
I'm glad to hear that you went beyond Googling how do I make tortilla chips at scale.

Speaker 2 (05:41)
No joke. Well, like, yeah, it's like, what do I do? No, please tell me you have an answer because I don't know how to do this. So.

Speaker 1 (05:51)
So I do want to ask a question about your mother, which is how old was she when you placed up on call?

Speaker 2 (05:58)
So mom was 82.

Speaker 1 (06:02)
82 and 80.

Speaker 2 (06:05)
And pretty well retired. know, she always had hobbies and things like that, but not like real little games.

Speaker 1 (06:15)
And how old were you?

Speaker 2 (06:18)
How old was I? I guess I was 50.

Speaker 1 (06:22)
Yeah, I think about that because we're about the same age. Yeah, yeah. And the reason that I ask that is because I hear a lot of times I hear people say, well, you know, it's too late. It's too late to jump into something like that. And I just think that this idea people often agree they'll say, well, that would be that would be fun or that would be a great idea. I'd really like to explore that. But they don't quite put the oomph into

Aligning themselves to getting it done right and a lot of times what's holding people back is this perception? That it's too late and it's too far along in my career of to set I you know only know how to do what I know how to do and hear you and your mom and other members of your family Are going off on this amazing adventure when you're you know Directionally, let's call it in the third half of your third quarter of third third

Yeah, yeah. And I think that's really both interesting and exciting and curious if you feel like for yourself, if somebody were coming to you at a similar point and saying, hey, I'm to take a hard right turn. What would you tell them about those, maybe that first year when you were trying to learn something brand new and also trying to do something, execute on it, bring the idea together, surrounding yourself with people who maybe could help you.

What would you say to somebody who is thinking about doing something like that?

Speaker 2 (07:48)
So I think it really depends on their mentality for this. You know, I've always had it. My mom was a serial entrepreneur, right? All of her life, she just broke barriers and had really great businesses that she set up. So I definitely inherited that from her. And what she always taught me, amongst many other things, is that...

you really need to have a stomach for it because you know as much as you plan as much as you forecast as much as you project something will always go awry always and you always underestimate the amount of money you need or the time that you need or the turnaround whatever the it is it's always different

And a lot of people can't really handle that. you know, don't get me wrong, there's a lot that I didn't handle well myself in this process. So I will say that for me, kind of in the latter phases of age, what I liked about doing it, other than the learning,

was the fact that I just had a life of experience in business that I could apply to this, right? Even though it was new, there are certain business elements that kind of cover many, different verticals, right? And I think there's a lot to be set for that. And I think, you know, as you go out for investments, investors for sure like that you're more mature.

so to speak, and have that knowledge base. you know, anyone who has approached me or would approach me, I would speak to them and make sure that they really understand what's involved, the sacrifice that they're willing to make. You know, it is definitely not an easy thing, not only to invest monetarily in your own business,

but not take a salary for five years, as was the case for me, right? That's, you know, like if you're in a business for, or you're working, as you said, and comfortable, you know, getting a paycheck, you know, every month or every couple of weeks for 30, 40 years, and then all of a sudden that goes away. And not only goes away, but you're taking your savings and depleting it.

you know, towards a new venture. Yeah, that's not an easy thing to see. Right. Exactly. Exactly. So, you know, anyone, listen, anyone that has an entrepreneurial spirit, I will always encourage them. You know, it gives us just nothing more exciting. But, you know, you don't want to drown yourself. You certainly don't want to stress yourself out. You want to make sure your family is kind of on the same wavelength with you.

Speaker 1 (10:47)
for the thing.

Speaker 2 (11:10)
because it's not just you that you're going to have impact on. It'll be those in your circle. So, and I was blessed for sure to have, you know, great family who wanted to see this come to life.

Speaker 1 (11:26)
Yeah, I think there is something about that coalescing of energy to bring it to life. It really can't just be one person. You have to create a community around it to help you through those moments, right? Like what is it Mike Tyson said, everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face, right? so there's moments when you get punched in the face, you need people to help pick you up, whether that's family or friends or business, you know, colleagues or whatever that might be. How do you create that sense of

community around you and it seems like in this Rose Sisterships adventure you have had a community around you to help you through some of those moments both your family but also it feels to me like you've reached out into the business community and talked to people about what you're doing and you've gotten some support there as well. Is that fair to say?

Speaker 2 (12:17)
and critical, I would say. Again, not having the experience of the industry, right? You can't do it in a vacuum, right? You're just doomed to fail if you think you have all the answers, no matter how much you read online. I'm never shy to ask for help. I think, at least for me, LinkedIn has been an amazing networking tool. And what I've found is that

kind of the food and manufacturing kind of CPG world is with a lot of like-minded people who are absolutely willing to help. They're, I mean, they're just very, very, um, selfless people, which has just been amazing for, for us, just as a sounding board or even opening doors to other people. Um, or just a shoulder to cry on, right? Because

those who kind of started before us have gone through the woods, right? They've fallen into the pits and they can, exactly, and they can just empathize, sympathize and just help you through it. So it's been invaluable. And I think that, I mean, a little hard to say the bigger the network, the better, just because the further out you go, the...

You know, it's just harder to be close. But it's not a bad idea to build a sizable circle around you of folks, you know, with different skill sets and experiences. It's been really, really great. Really great.

Speaker 1 (14:04)
You know, it's been fun to watch your journey and I think I feel like there must have been a couple of breakthrough moments that still that you still remember, especially about those early years, because you're is it five years now, six years?

Speaker 2 (14:17)
We're just shy as six.

Speaker 1 (14:20)
Yeah,

which congratulations, by the way, because most startups, as we all know, they'll make it past five years. And so that's actually a big milestone right there.

Speaker 2 (14:28)
I think. Yeah, it is.

Speaker 1 (14:31)
I'm wondering when you think back on those early years, is there a moment that or a couple of moments that stand out as where you felt like you just had a breakthrough or you felt like things were starting to come together and what made up those moments for you?

Speaker 2 (14:44)
Yeah, that's a harder question than maybe you think for us. So we basically started our journey one year before COVID hit, right? So we had built some pretty good momentum in that first year. And then obviously the brakes were just slammed. And we ended up

pivoting in order to kind of keep going and figure out a way to, because we were so new, we had to get samples into the hands of potential buyers. And obviously nothing was happening face to face. So we had to find a way of getting their contacts and we did. And that was a big, big moment for us because we got a lot of traction in that second year. Obviously the world was still in a very slow motion kind of.

process. know, sales were obviously a lot lower than we had hoped and were for the next couple of years. But it allowed us the ability to build the network. It also allowed us the ability to build our own manufacturing facility rather than outsourcing it. So once we kind of clicked on the switch in our own facility, that was a huge moment for us because we just knew

you know, the quality of the product that was getting pushed out, we could scale, you know, in our own way. We weren't beholden to others. It was just a really huge moment for us. And, you know, before then, it was really like we were limited on who we could talk to. You know, we couldn't...

we would never have been able to service, you know, a 300 store chain or, you know what I mean? Anything like that, because, you know, the production facility just, they weren't that size. But with our own facility, we absolutely can do that. We can, you know, scale as I said, any way we want. So those were big, big, big moments for us. you know, landing the larger accounts was great validation.

you know, the great thing about a grandma's recipe is that it's kind of time tested, right? There's a reason that everybody likes it is because it's fricking good. Yeah. So having a good product, knowing you've got a good product, and seeing the responses of everyone that tries it is just daily, daily validation. Yeah. It really, it really, really is.

Speaker 1 (17:39)
Well, and I can say I've tried your product and it's amazing. Rose Sisters chips I think are fantastic for any event that you might be having where tortillas would be appropriate. Or tortilla chips, right? Yeah, I remember, by the way, my first box of them that I got from you and it had a little note in it saying enjoy and we sure did enjoy those. so, yeah, I think you're right. You have a great product that is unique in a fairly common market.

Speaker 2 (18:09)
Exactly. Exactly. And in fact, from like an industry perspective, the sector and the segment in which we play, our little piece of the sandbox, is actually a really stale category, you know, and buyers are always looking for truly innovative solutions. And when they see what we've got, and that we're the only ones out there with it, it just really opens some eyes. So.

We're definitely blessed to have that as our starting point.

Speaker 1 (18:45)
I know that one thing that you did recently is you repackaged, you rebranded your packaging, I think. Is that right? Yeah. think one of the things when I saw that kind of going down and you were sharing about it on LinkedIn, one of the things that I thought to myself, gosh, that's so interesting because a lot of people, whether they're brand managers in a big conglomerate or they're entrepreneurs and they've built a brand themselves, you've really over the last six years,

poured your heart and soul into building the brand, right? And to building the, and a lot of it was tied to the packaging, which is unique for the segment. And it feels like that must've been, I don't know if maybe a little confronting is the word, but maybe a little hesitation around, we go down this road or should we stick with what we've got? And you were getting, as far as I understand, you were getting feedback that you needed to refresh it a little bit.

And I'm just curious, what got you to finally move on that? Because that's a big deal for especially consumer products. When you change the branding on your packaging, that can be a big moment as well. So tell me a little bit about that decision and what played into it.

Speaker 2 (19:58)
Yeah, so I think we kind of knew for a while that something had to change. And the reason was we always had great success getting into stores, right? Because again, once the buyers try it, they love it and they put it on the shelves. But what happened is that, as you know,

You get maybe three seconds of attention as customers are strolling on by doing their shopping. And you need something to capture their attention, but not just that. have to educate them. They have to understand what are they looking at in a fraction of a second? Like, do they know, do they get it? You know, straight away. And we learned that they were not getting, you know, we.

We got it, right? Because we understood. You're great. And mind you, And, but I mean, you know, get my tongue in cheek a little bit here. You know, we designed the old packaging, um, literally on a flight from Salt Lake City to home in New York.

You know, I was bored. I didn't want to watch anything on TV and I'm like, okay. Design the packaging. Exactly. Right. And I'm like, all right. I mean, I, I'm kind of a little smart and I, I know the product. you know, I kind of put it together and we ended up hiring like a really creative young guy, um, through an online freelance service.

Speaker 1 (21:31)
I'm satisfied to do that.

Speaker 2 (21:52)
He happened to be based in Serbia and you know, like he designed everything including our logo and the website and a product sheet and everything for $500 and like perfect, you know, this is great. Yeah, and then all of a sudden we've got a bag, you know to put our chips in and that was great because even as I'll say as bad as the design was

The package itself is so unique that it really does attract consumers. It's just a different looking bag with a window. And that alone attracts the folks. So at least we had that. But it just wasn't enough. So we knew we had to invest in a real packaging designer.

and without losing the feel of our family. Because it's just important. It has to be part of what it is that's going out there into the market. So we spent a lot of time with him, showed him what we had, where we were going, and kind of building what we wanted our message to be. It's not just...

about eating chips. You know, it's not a mindless thing. You know, it's really a, it's an engaging process. It's mindful snacking. It's healthier. And really it's about kind of elevating the joy in food. And that's what we wanted to convey. So the new packaging, which we're rolling out as we speak,

already is getting great, great, great, great feedback. So, you we have high expectations this year of it really kind of spreading nicely.

Speaker 1 (24:00)
The thing that I like about it is it tells you right on the packaging what it is. And I know that seems very obvious, right? But I think that's going to be really great as we start to see it on shelves, which is also exciting.

Speaker 2 (24:15)
So again, for us, it's hard. was hard because growing up with it, obviously I knew what it is. But trying to educate a consumer who's never seen three full round tortillas baked and seasoned in a bag and that you're the one who's supposed to break it and understanding that it's even a flour tortilla and that it's baked and not fried.

These are things that they didn't instantly get, right? And now they will, right? Because it's like, here's a seasoned baked flour tortilla.

Speaker 1 (24:54)
It says it right there. Exactly. Yeah. Well, the reason I think this is so interesting and actually part of the conversation around the failure gap and this space between agreement and alignment is we often see people, leaders who agree that something needs to change or that it needs to be different, but they don't then get kind of that last step of getting everybody aligned to do it differently.

Speaker 2 (24:58)
It's like in bold and italics.

Speaker 1 (25:23)
And part of that is there's a couple of things that you've highlighted about this rebranding that I think are worth pulling out for people, which is if you want to get momentum behind something like that, first of all, it's important to be radically honest with yourself about the reality of the packaging or the brand or whatever it is that you're trying to change. And it feels like you were willing to do that and to challenge your own preconceived or learned notions of, know, it's obvious what it is.

Right? But it's not obvious to your customers. And so learning and listening to the people in the stores that you were selling into and what they were observing from the customers seems like a really important part of that recipe as well. That you were open to that and you were taking that feedback and then letting go of what was working, but it was sort of just fine. It wasn't great. And taking that risk for something to, to allow it to become great, I think is another thing that holds people back.

from making changes like that. They're thinking, well, do you want to put fine at risk? Because then it could go really bad or it could become really great. And it feels like you've been willing to say, what was fine? It was fine, but we need for it to be great. So we're going to change it up and we're going to take some risks and we're going to do things a little bit differently. those three things kind of stand out to me.

Speaker 2 (26:43)
Yeah, and I'll say, and this kind of goes back to starting a company a little older is, you know, I've certainly sat through enough pitches and presentations in this space, like the CPG space, from much younger founders, you know, who don't have the same kind of business seasoning as it were.

And you can just tell the ones who are really stuck in their own heads about what's best and not listening to what the market is telling you. And I think that one thing that we as an older aging generation with experience is that the ego kind of falls by the wheat wayside. And you know, like we've had people like,

When we're doing a customer sampling event, know, somewhere, someone will come up who's a packaging expert. you know, I remember this, this one person came up, she's like, I hate your packaging. And I'm like, okay. It's really nice to meet you. Really nice to meet you. Tell me what you don't like. Like, tell me. Like, you know, it's like, there's no, can't insult me. It's like, it is what it is. You know, it's not, if we're going to change it.

I want to hear what people think because if you make a change, you invest in it and it's not a small investment, know, not just monetary, but as you were talking about the risk, you know, like if it's wrong, that that would have a disastrous end effect. So anyone that wants to offer input, I'm all ears. It's great. And I'm not, you know, I think we were

stuck in our way just with the previous packaging really for financial reasons. It was working, like you said, fine. Right? It was, but not great. And we want great. You know, because it's just a great product and we want everybody to understand what it is that they're getting and have the experience. So,

Speaker 1 (28:49)
It was fun.

Speaker 2 (29:08)
You know, this was the time. Absolutely the time to do it.

Speaker 1 (29:12)
I really appreciate your comment about letting the ego fall away a little bit. And at the same time that you retain the right to make your own decisions, right? So somebody can come up and say, I hate your packaging. Great to listen, great to be open to that input and to hear her perspective and also to use it as a data point and not as a command, right? It's not going to necessarily guide where you go, but it is a data. It's an important data point for you.

I don't know when you said that I was reflecting on I'm famous for one time telling a client just because you disagree with me doesn't mean I'm wrong. I think but I do think that's part of it right like there could be multiple things that are true and there could be a lot of ways that things can be right or wrong. But it's all about learning.

Speaker 2 (30:04)
Exactly. And I think it's important also for anyone at any age in this kind of journey to realize that all the opinions that come to you are just that. Okay. Like just because you told me that you like, you know, capital T instead of a little T on the bag.

Okay, you know, maybe that will make a difference to some and it won't make a difference to someone else. It's just, you know, you just have to, and again, I think it just comes with experience. You know, you just know which are more impacting comments and which are just more ethereal. They just won't really, you know, solidify into anything. But again, it's just important to take in what you can.

Right? Because you got to learn. You got to, especially if you don't come from the industry. And the other thing is, you know, and I think almost everyone is pretty guilty of this is that if you stay in an industry for a really long time, but in the payments world, you know, you look back on your experience, right? And what you learned, you know, 20 years ago,

doesn't have the same meaning today, right? It's not the same business. So as things evolve, it's hard for people to accept the evolution, right? And make those changes in their life. And it's true in every industry. So for me, I needed to hear from others and I solicited feedback, you know, constantly. And demos are always a great way in the food world.

you know, for customers to say, my God, this is like amazing. I had no idea what it was because, you know, it doesn't say it on the back. I'm like, okay, good feedback. know, so yeah, I, I think again, the more that they can take in from others, it can only help.

Speaker 1 (32:20)
Yeah, I think there's a degree of being open to that and then also knowing what your vision is. But being able to adapt your vision as you get more and more data points around what consumers or customers or clients or whoever your market is telling you. Then there's shaping the industry. To your point, your product is, as far as I can tell, the only one of its kind in a very traditional segment of tortilla chips.

Speaker 2 (32:37)
Yeah, I

Speaker 1 (32:49)
for anyone listening out there, if you think about your last bag of tortilla chips, it might have been round, it might have been a triangle, but it probably wasn't a wholly baked tortilla that you had to break apart yourself, right? And so you are in a lot of ways guiding the industry in how this product is different and special from a fairly traditional segment.

Speaker 2 (33:13)
we are and we're also very intentional on where we want to be positioned within a store. you know, there are different strategies for different kinds of products. And for us, we knew immediately that we didn't want to be in the middle of the store with in the aisle of Chase, right? Like we didn't want to be in a C

of so many different offerings on a shelf, which by the way, cost a fortune to get on those shelves. But that aside, it's just from an optics, you know, what the eye would capture. We didn't, we didn't want to be there. So we're always on the perimeter, the outside ring. And usually in the deli department, where there are fewer crackers and

chips and crisps and things like that that are typically more artisan, know, better quality, typically healthier. And again, being there just helps to stand out. And secondly, our packaging, again, the design of it makes it stand out all the more. we, we will definitely have way more success, you know, being on that kind of

perimeter area than in the middle.

Speaker 1 (34:44)
Yeah, and even those are things that I suspect when you got started six years ago, you didn't have any idea about how to get something into a store.

Speaker 2 (34:52)
We could not have had any less of an idea on how to do kind of anything. You know, like there's just, again, it was all brand new and that's what we want, right? We just wanted start from scratch, like a completely blank canvas. You know, let's color this thing in as we go. You know, and again, it's not for everybody. And, you know, there's a tendency to fall into traps.

you know, that probably would have been avoidable with, you know, some advisory assistance. But we just kind of wanted to go for it. And some of those traps are great learnings, painful, but great. So yeah, yeah, yeah, no, we didn't know anything.

Speaker 1 (35:43)
Sometimes that's a blessing. Sometimes it's a blessing. So I have another question for you about this idea of a lot of people say I'd like to do this, but they don't actually do it. And that is a family business. So we've talked a bit about getting into a business, CPG, food, things that you were learning about very fast. But there's also the element of bringing the family along. Tell me a little bit about what that's like, because I think a lot of people feel like it would be great to a family business.

But it can be challenging.

Speaker 2 (36:16)
Yeah, I think that's true. I think it kind of depends on what kind of family you are, right? And the relationship dynamic between the individuals. In my case, you know, is myself and my wife and my mom. And mom was, you know, the primary owner and strategic advisor. And the day to day kind of fell to myself and my wife.

And that worked great. It works great. know, mom was, you know, outside of Delaware where she was kind of born and raised. And then we're up here in Connecticut. So we had that kind of geographic distance. And then if anything kind of material came up, we'd just jump on a call. Yeah, let's jump on a call. Let's talk about what it is and make sure that we're all in the same wavelength. So that works great. When it was time to

stop self-funding, you know, out of our own pockets. You know, the family stepped up with your friends and family round of investment. And they're great, right? They want to be kept in the loop on what's going on. They're not certainly involved in the day-to-day, mainly because they have their own careers, but they wanted something fun to be involved in that was...

you know, not as a traditional, you know, New York stock exchange investment. And that's been great. We have tried to get our kids involved in the business and they are all at the age where they've got their own ideas of what their careers are. And it's kind of how we were with our parents, right? At that same age. And we respect that.

you know, maybe later after they've had their careers, they'll kind of want to loop into it. You know, and then we have, yeah, I mean, it's been great, like, from that perspective. So, I mean, we've just been pretty blessed to have, know, a pretty flexible family that's, you know, super supportive, excited, encouraging, great cheerleaders. You know.

They're great word of mouth spreaders, so it's worked out perfect for us.

Speaker 1 (38:46)
I'm so happy to hear that. And as we both know, that's not always the story, but it seems like the roles and responsibilities were fairly clear, which I'm sure helped that you knew kind of what you were doing. Your mother knew what she was doing. Your wife had her role. You were able to settle into those fairly quickly. And that might be part of the success is that you, wasn't a lot of conflict around that. doesn't sound like. then.

Speaker 2 (39:13)
There wasn't. And I'll tell you one thing that made it a lot easier for us is that mom, her background was really kind of marketing and strategy, like really just crazy strong in that all of her life. And my background has been kind of general management.

more sales and business development, and my wife more of the finance, accounting and operations. So we just had these perfectly complimentary skill sets that just made it way easier. So there were, yeah, think there were the only conflicts that really came up were about major expenditures only because it's painful.

you know, when you're just kind of getting geared up and you kind of put a plan together where you need to spend $50,000 on something or $100,000 on something, it hurts. Like you feel it, especially when it's your own money. And, you know, and I think it was appropriate for there to be a deeper discussion around that, you know, rather than it just be, you know, check it off the list, say, okay, like, let's really talk it through because

If it's poorly executed, it could easily sunk the company before you get started. So was good. Mom knew when to push to make sure that we weren't being foolish. We're still kids to ourselves, or we were. And it was good. It was great.

Speaker 1 (41:01)
I love to hear that and I do think that what you've outlined is something for people to look for, which is that you each had your strengths that you were able to bring in and they were complimentary instead of competitive. So you didn't have to jockey for control or power or position in that space amongst the family as you grew this little experiment that started out six years ago and now is featured on Home Shopping Network.

Speaker 2 (41:31)
Exactly. I will say, I think a lot of the conflict and the real anger moments between family, it comes when there's a lot of overlap, whether it's in responsibility, whether it's in ownership, you know, just the sooner you iron those things out and, you know, you know, visors on of

Speaker 1 (41:31)
I think it's really

Speaker 2 (41:59)
responsibility, the better, right? Because you just don't any kind of ambiguity just ends up building like resentments, you know, and it's just the better clearly defined things are. mean, certainly you hope the family and everyone involved has the same objective, right? Like get out a great product, make people happy and hopefully eventually make some money.

You know, but like when the, again, egos get involved and it come, you know, like if there's just a conflict because, I thought I was responsible for this and, know, you stay out of my sandbox. Like that's bad. Like that's all bad. And it's not necessary, you know, it shouldn't, it shouldn't be that way. and thankfully it wasn't that way. But I do think to your point.

defining based on individual's strengths was material to making it a pretty smooth launch.

Speaker 1 (43:07)
Yeah, well, it's been exciting to watch your journey and to watch this business grow. And I know there are great things ahead of you. I just want to do a quick roundup of some of the things that we've talked about here today. We started with the idea that a lot of people think it would be fun or adventurous or a good idea to start their own business. And we all know that it's actually very, very hard. And some of the things that you called out that you have to really get aligned on for yourself is

it takes a lot of fortitude. have to be able to weather some storms and get through your best-lay plans getting disrupted. And that one way to support that is by having a community around you. And that comes from being willing to ask for help and being willing to reach out, to share what you're doing, to share what you're excited about, what you're scared about, what challenges you have to overcome and get some help from the people who

maybe have done it before or are experts in that space. I love that you also went to Rutgers and took a class. Like I think, you know, there is something in formal learning that sometimes we forget. If you're going off to try and do something you've never done before, there might be a way to get just a great foundation behind you. Even as someone who's a successful business person, starting your own business, especially in the food industry is something that you hadn't done before. And so figuring out how to fill in some of those gaps, I think is really important.

And then we talked about this idea of rebranding and taking on something that you created it yourself on your way from Salt Lake to New York, sketched it out on a cocktail napkin, I assume, on the plane, and it was working fine, right? You you obviously got some help to harden it, but this idea of how do we get it from fine to great? And how do we make it something that the consumer can relate to more easily? I think that takes a lot to get yourself aligned to doing that because it's easy to stay at fine.

It's easy to put your money elsewhere. It's easy to put your time and attention elsewhere. But when you're getting data coming in that tells you that there's an opportunity to do better by the brand and do better by the product, those are important voices to listen to. And you talked about hearing from people at trade shows, hearing from some of the people who are stocking your product on their shelves, and hearing from some of the customers about that. So I think those are great data points while you still kind of treat them as data points and not as edicts and kind of put them in the mix.

and figure out where you want to go. So I think that opportunity to be open to that is really important. And then here in the last few minutes, we've talked about being a family business and what that takes. And I think your call out about clear roles and responsibilities and not letting things sit in ambiguity is really helpful for people who might be thinking about doing something like that. Because I think you're right, things fester when they're unclear or when people feel like there's overlap.

And that's when I think things start to go a little sideways, not just in family businesses, but in any business. But I think especially when you add in the family dynamics piece of it, that can be something to really pay attention to. if people are thinking about going off on an adventure with their family, those are some good things to think about. Is there anything, Jon, that I missed in that wrap up around the areas that we've hit on and some of the things that we've talked about as we reflect on your experience of starting up Rose Sisters Chips and

bringing it to the point where it is today, six years in, and still going strong.

Speaker 2 (46:31)
I think that was a perfect wrap up. would just emphasize the importance of getting a strong community around you. Even if you're already familiar with the space, it's always good to have different perspectives, be it family or industry people to act as a sounding board because there's always something better you could do or new.

that you could do and it's worth making an effort to do that. And then from the family perspective, not just within the business, but around the business, you know, when you make a decision to get into this world, just remember it's not only you that you're impacting, you know, make sure that you're being honest and open with.

your loved ones about what's going on. You know, they're there. They love you to be supportive. But you know, the stress of the business has kind of a outward impact to everyone. So you just need to be fair to yourself and be fair to them. But it is, it's a great ride, really a great ride. So

I encourage anyone who's really willing to do it, do it, do it. There's just nothing like it.

Speaker 1 (48:08)
Yeah, like you said, your mom had that spark of entrepreneurship herself for her whole career, right? And I think it's so lovely to see it growing in you. And you know, you have another generation coming up behind you that might surprise you at some point to you as they lean into what those opportunities look like.

Speaker 2 (48:24)
Exactly. We'll see. We'll see. But either way, they're enjoying the ride along with us.

Speaker 1 (48:30)
Yeah, yeah, and who couldn't because they get great tips out of it, right?

Speaker 2 (48:33)
Exactly, for free. Seriously.

Speaker 1 (48:36)
Exactly. What better outcome than that? Hey, Jon, thank you so much for sharing a little bit about your journey and your story and your family's experience with this. It's been really great to have the opportunity to talk with you. I appreciate you doing that.

Speaker 2 (48:50)
Love being here and it's always great to see you.

Speaker 1 (48:52)
Yeah. And for our listeners, I just want to remind you to like and subscribe and comment on this episode. Feel free to share it with anyone who you think might benefit from hearing about it. And remember the power of aligned leadership. If you want to go fast, go alone, go far, go together to go far fast, get aligned. And I think that's a really important element of Jon, what you've been able to achieve with what you've done at Rose Sisters ships. So thanks again for being here and thanks everyone for listening.