The Failure Gap

Speaker 2 (00:00)
Hello and welcome to The Failure Gap, where we talk with leaders about closing the space between agreement and alignment. We love talking with interesting people and today we're joined by Dr. Jandel Allen-Davis. Dr. Allen-Davis is the president and CEO of Craig Hospital, a Denver, Colorado-based world-renowned rehabilitation hospital that specializes in neurorehabilitation and research for individuals with spinal cord and brain injury.

She's been the recipient of many prestigious awards and recognition, and she's an active participant in her communities. She's married with two children and loves gardening, hiking, and is a fiber artist whose work has been displayed in several galleries over the year. Jandel, thank you so much for joining us today. I'm really looking forward to this conversation.

Speaker 1 (00:44)
Well,

thank you so much for having me. I'm looking forward to it too, Julie. Thank you.

Speaker 2 (00:49)
Jendelle, I would love it if you would give our listeners a little taste of your journey to leadership and how you became the CEO of Craig Hospital.

Speaker 1 (00:56)
Well, thanks, Julie. And it's both a funny story and proves so many things as I think about leadership and how it works or doesn't work or whatever myths we may have about it, how my story and I think the story of a lot of leaders busts myths. I'm a physician. I actually practice obstetrics and gynecology for 25 years, including my residency. And then in 2009, actually 2006 and then

Completely in 2009, I walked away from all clinical care. was at Kaiser Permanente as vice president. I left the medical group and joined the health plan as the vice president of government external relations and research. And then I got recruited, which is kind of crazy. I got a call or an email in May of 18. At the time though, interestingly, knowing I was feeling hemmed in and it was time to figure out.

what I really wanted to do, because I had the sense I could do more and just didn't see a growth path within the organization, but wasn't doing anything about it at all. And then a recruiter called me about Craig Hospital when we talked, because I'd helped him with a recruitment a couple of years before that. When we talked, ⁓ I gave him names of a couple of people and ended the phone call. And a friend encouraged me. She sent me a text and said, he wants to talk to you.

⁓ And I went on to say, because I had ⁓ applied for a role within Kaiser a couple of years before that, while a finalist didn't come to pass, is you know, you know you're ready to do something more. You may not get the role, but you have to try. And so I chose to have a conversation with this recruiter. And I remembered when we set up the time to get together, I hung up the phone and I went, ⁓ it's that easy. It's not always that easy, but it's just this. ⁓

ability to just say yes and to know when it is time to say yes and just be willing to put yourself out there and explore. And so I fell in love with Craig Hospital. Actually, I then went back and read the leadership profile, which I completely ignored when he sent me the email initially. And there was this one picture of the former CEO, Mike Fordyce, looking at this man who was standing on parallel bars.

and the smile on his face and the look in his eyes at what he was witnessing, I said, you had me at that picture. And so I'm just so grateful that it worked out to have the opportunity to lead this really prestigious and wonderful ⁓ hospital that my strong belief is if all places function this way in terms of healthcare, healthcare would be of much higher quality, way safer than it is, and actually, and interestingly, affordable.

in some ways that are important. So you love what I get to do every day is what I say.

Speaker 2 (03:49)
Yeah, and we would be remiss if we didn't give a shout out to Craig Hospital and the amazing work that they do there to help people literally get back on their feet. ⁓ It really is an incredible place.

Speaker 1 (03:59)
It does. And some get back on their feet, but many roll out and roll right back into their lives in some really, really important ways, whether brain injury or spinal cord injury.

Speaker 2 (04:09)
Absolutely, absolutely. However they make it happen is how it happens. You know, you mentioned something too in that about a friend of yours seeing the opportunity before you did and had been that voice in your ear saying, hey, you know, I think this could be interesting for you. And isn't it so amazing how sometimes in our journeys through life, we need that little push from somebody to say, you know, hey, this could be about you, not about, you know, the people who you might want to make it available to.

Speaker 1 (04:37)
It's a really good point and an important one, think, for ⁓ folks as they're making their way, all of us, through whatever that career journey looks like. What I say is you never know who's watching you. You just never know. And so the importance of that is not to be always on the lookout for what's next, but be wholly present in what you're doing right now because you're picking up skills, you're learning about yourself, you're learning about what it's like to be in collaboration and community in different, either follower,

or leadership roles along the way. And all of that is you're amassing all these skills, but then somebody comes along and sees something you can and you get plucked. That's in so many ways been my leadership story. I thought for sure I would end my career with a baby in one hand and a speculum in the other, as a gynecologist. Although I had leadership opportunities all along the way and always wanted to be at tables where people were trying to make things better, but I just kind of

didn't see most of what's happened in my career coming along. Well, look at me now, hair gray.

Speaker 2 (05:39)
I'm looking at you now.

One of the other things I picked up in your story is that ⁓ at the end you said yes. You said yes to an opportunity and to a conversation and then later an opportunity to do something that was from the outside looking in looked far away from your wheelhouse, right? Like you say, you were in a certain area of medicine and a certain institution and this was taking a big step outside of that. And I think that is something that people struggle with sometimes. I agree that it would be a good idea to be

willing to say yes and to be a little bit more adventurous, but they struggle to get that oomph to make that happen. And I'm just curious, as you think about for yourself, moving from agreement to alignment on things, I'm sure there's things in your life where you've thought, that'd be really great to do. And you had to find a way to get yourself aligned to do those things.

Speaker 1 (06:38)
You know, it's a really good and important pick up and ⁓ point you're making. ⁓ I sometimes start talks on leadership by saying there are two questions I'm asked and one that no one has ever asked, but I'll tell you the answers. The first one is I don't know. The second one is absolutely. And the third one is, of course, but why should that be a deterrent? The first question is, how do you go from being an obstetrician gynecologist

to being a CEO of a nationally and internationally renowned neuro rehab hospital. And I say, I don't know. All I know is that there are doors that open and you walk through them. You're not ready. You're not totally prepared. But back to this whole notion of alignment.

You know that you have all you need for that point because you don't have to do everything. You have a team that you get to work on and getting super clear about what your role is is super important and how you play on that team is important. The second one is do you miss clinical care? Absolutely. I didn't run from ⁓ the idea of being in women's and families' lives in such a special way, both in terms of gynecology and obstetrics. But there are other things that came along that ⁓

I got more and more opportunities to be involved in leadership and did it. And then the last one is, it hard? And I say, absolutely, it's hard. But you know, Edison said, opportunity is missed by some because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work. And so I think that it's absolutely hard work, but it's some of the most rewarding that you can do when you have a vision, have a dream, or part of helping fulfill or fill out or complete.

dreams and visions that others have and you know that it makes the days go fast and boy does it make the days go fast. So that's how I think about it. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:33)
I really appreciate that impetus around, you you can't be afraid of the hard work. And I think that is something that sometimes keeps people in agreement that something would be a good idea. Like, I really hope somebody does that, but it does look like a lot of work. But when you are doing something that you're drawn to or that you love, somehow the level of effort, I don't think the level of effort changes necessarily, but maybe it becomes more accessible to us when we're drawn to it.

And it feels like you were drawn to this opportunity at Craig.

Speaker 1 (09:04)
I was, I mean, it's that concept that they talk about and the creative pursuits of being in flow. And the days go fast. ⁓ They really do. I still six and a half years in, probably don't want to hear this, but I'm working 10, 11 hour days and it doesn't even feel like they're that long by the time I get to the office and by the time the hospital and by the time I leave. I think that, ⁓ so there is this notion of presence that's really important and you've got to love what you're doing. And when you love what you're doing,

that no matter how hard it is, there's a part of it that's worth it. Especially when I consider who we serve and what we do and what I get to see around what we call miracles at Craig. I think there are miracles, but I also think there's just a ton of really purpose-driven, devoted, committed, creative, highly skilled people who use all of their gifts and service to this mission. Everybody, and not just the folks at the bedside, as we say.

Speaker 2 (10:00)
Yeah, it takes the whole village. Yeah. Well, can you give me an example for yourself of where you feel like you kind of agree that something was a good idea for a while and then you got yourself around to getting aligned and making it happen. You have a very broad set of interests and ⁓ experiences and I'm just curious if there's one that stands out to you.

Speaker 1 (10:02)
Thanks to Village.

You know, I was actually just talking about one example. We just hired a new chief nursing officer. And so I've been doing some pre-boarding with her and had her come over to Craig a few, a couple of weeks ago. And we talked about who is Craig, not what or how we do, but who is Craig. And that was a good conversation around culture. And then today we just got a little deeper on things. One of the things that I knew and we know was an opportunity for us at Craig, I discovered shortly after I arrived there was, ⁓

using more data to inform decisions, but also to, I'd say, sense make and create ⁓ what are the opportunities for us to do work better. And it wasn't a ⁓ core strength. mean, obviously we followed quality data and that kind of things, but this idea of thinking about data at a systems level and what is the data telling you and curiosity about questions and then being able to actually go out and answer them wasn't, we didn't have systems set up to do that.

And I will tell you that, ⁓ you know, even coming from the organization that I was at for at Kaiser Permanente where we swam in the stuff, data everywhere, the idea of ⁓ taking disparate sets of data that come together and paint pictures of what's really happening is a challenge for all organizations. think a lot would say that, and we were no exception. And I even.

Remember getting resistance from the executive team, not all the members, but some about, we don't need to talk about this particular issue here because we talk about it in this meeting or that meeting. And, you know, my belief is that ⁓ at an executive level, we need to have a systems view of what's going on. So, you know, if this financial metric is doing this, what's that tell us about lengths of stay or ⁓

And if lengths of stay are getting longer in COVID, have we looked back to trend data, those sort of things, those things we really didn't do. And so there was some resistance, but I said, this is work we have to do. And Julie, I'll never forget the day when ⁓ we, over time, we started with some simple, at least weekly at our meetings, let's make sure we're looking at some simple ⁓ stats around average daily census and how are there any ⁓ problem patients or families, what's happening with falls, the sorts of things, things that we knew that we.

probably should keep an eye on and then got far more rigorous about things around trending data and following it over time, still with some resistance. And then finally, there's this man who I worked with at Kaiser, who we hired about three, four years ago now. And he is so good at this and we can sit and have these great conversations and he goes off and he knew how to take these different systems and pull it together for things.

And there was this magic moment where we're sitting in one of our all day, because once a month we have an all day executive team, on-site, off-site we call it, ⁓ and dig into issues where we presented the dashboards. And to hear the questions that were coming up and watch this magic happen around a table where without, you know, I never had to scream about it or anything like that, but the idea that this is super important, but to watch curiosity start to form.

And we continue to do that to this day because I think that ⁓ especially in times like this where it's hard to really even sort of the typical ways that we try to manage and respond to ⁓ either things inside the organization or more importantly things coming at us from outside, the typical ways are not as easy to sort of figure out. ⁓ It's important to exercise that muscle. But it took some

It, you know, everybody agreed that we, after a point that it made sense. But I don't think that there was great alignment until we had product to show on. And then they got super excited about what this could tell us. And it's been a fun journey that we're still on. I think it's one that never, it's one that never ends, I think, around taking data ⁓ to make it, going from data to information to ⁓ observations about what that is telling you and then decision making.

Speaker 2 (14:37)
Yeah. And you know, Jen Dell, there's a couple of things that I heard in there that I just want to call out for people because they're so important. And one that I really love is that you mentioned early on, you, you know, at Kerikin's group, you know us, we love to talk about nudges and not chubs. What are some nudges that will help get people aligned? And you talked about how you started by just bringing it up consistently at your meetings. Like, how do we just keep coming back to it and like getting a little deeper every time rather than trying to do some big catalytic push?

and saying we, you know, like, we've got to make this happen now, we should have made it happen yesterday, blah, blah, blah. But it's really like, how do we just slowly bring people into that curiosity about what's possible? So I love that approach for getting from agreement to alignment, you don't have to sometimes make a big leap, you can just keep nudging it forward. And that gets you gets you further in the end than a leap that falls short, right? ⁓

Yeah, the other one that I was just going to mention is that when you got to the right point, you brought in somebody who had that mindset and that way of thinking and that experience to help the rest of the team really see what was possible. And I think sometimes we do lose sight of the power of bringing in somebody who can help us to think differently. Because often when we're bringing people into the organization, we want people who think similarly. That is a very common...

⁓ and so bringing in somebody who had the experience to help create the space for those conversations, I'm sure was an accelerator for you as well.

Speaker 1 (16:14)
I think it wasn't. think there are a couple of other things in that too. The first is that sometimes, and I've certainly fallen prey to this along my leadership journey of ⁓ if you push an issue or an idea too hard, even if people say, let's do it, it becomes Jandel's idea. It never becomes the team's idea. And that's a really important thing that has to happen.

And so you got to know when it's time for you to back off and let someone else actually do the work. The other is that, and I think this is something that, you know, I don't know, I'll hold off on any, I'll let you tell me what you think this is. But the other is to make sure that the people who are introducing new ideas or work that we have to do are able to do it, my belief, with a gentle spirit. You know, new work can be intimidating for people.

It can be, if it's not there, if they're only half into what you're trying to do anyway, they will sabotage in all sorts of ways. Or they'll slow walk, you know, things like that. Especially if you bring in someone who thinks, ⁓ has a thank God I'm here kind of attitude. So I think there's also this way that we could care less how much knowledge you have until we know that you care. And so, and this particular team member has that.

that really gentle way that's almost deferential but for sure respectful and manages to make great relationships. And it's amazing how far that'll get you. So those are a couple of things that I think about were important. And then the third is, you know, despite knowing that I wanted us to begin to become more data informed, and it wasn't like I know they're not data informed, they have to be. It was only through exploration and asking questions I realized this was a gap and something that we could close.

But even with that said, nothing was broken. The house wasn't on fire. So back to your point is just take your time with these things. ⁓ But then be really both, I'd say, strategic and tactical about how you dish up and what you say, nudge along, not shove people. ⁓

Speaker 2 (18:26)
Yeah, and I think there is something really beautiful in that space. I would call what you're describing in this individual, the distinction between gravitas and arrogance. And there's a certain gravitas that comes from being confident in what you have to offer while also having that gentle spirit, as you called it, towards the environment that you're entering into and the quality of the people that you're surrounded by and respecting and showing respect for that while also being confident in

in what needs to happen and the direction that you can take the organization. And arrogance is that really hard, know, thank God I'm here attitude.

Speaker 1 (19:07)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it is so important. And I think it's also, you know, there may be cultures where that's the norm. So I'm not bashing them, but you've got to know the context, you've got to know the culture, because both really do matter in terms of even what's going to be the best way. And then, you know, even just yesterday, I can't remember what the issue was that ⁓

was being discussed, but there's this idea that we really do want on some of these big things that are going to take multiple stakeholders, a lot of ⁓ interdisciplinary work to get it done. You just got to know resistance is going to be there. And so you work through it in the ways that you need to, but you stay the course and remind people of why this is important. ⁓ But there's this way that can make, think, sir, I will own it, can make me feel

⁓ incompetent or a failure in terms of sometimes how long it takes to move big bodies of work that are brand new. ⁓ But that's not what it's about. It's about that there's going to be resistance and we know what change, what it takes to make change. ⁓ But you never ever give up when you know that it's going to be, in our case, better for patients.

Speaker 2 (20:24)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that focus on the patient outcomes is such an important part of what you do at Craig and in any business. I always encourage people not to ask, why do we do this? But ask, what is this in service to? So what is this in service to? it takes it out of that abstraction sometimes of the otherworldly why and gets down to

what are we trying to be in service to with this effort and what contribution will it make to the work that we do? And that sometimes is easier for people to grab onto.

Speaker 1 (21:02)
for that.

Speaker 2 (21:04)
Yeah, yeah. Well, I think that this idea of being a data-driven organization is something that so many companies, by the way, are faced with. So thank you for sharing that example. It is by no means unique. We have so many clients who I think would love to be more data-driven, but they struggle like you were talking about with how to put together disparate pieces of data from across the organization and use those to provide insight into how to run the business. And I really appreciate some of the things that you've brought up around

being patient, but holding your ground, having that, bringing in somebody who has that gravitas to be able to see the big picture and pull it together while respecting the incredible work that people are doing in the organization. And then thinking in terms of how do we just keep taking ground and how do we keep moving towards it? A Kerikans group, call it being in pursuit of better. How do we stay in pursuit of better?

Speaker 1 (21:56)
Yes, I have stolen that phrase from you. In fact, it came up on a call on research just this afternoon as we were thinking about translational research. And I said, this is really about getting better. We're doing this work in pursuit of better. I love that. I steal with pride.

Speaker 2 (22:12)
Steel with pride.

Why not?

Yeah, well, Jan-Dale, tell me, is there another example that comes to mind that you'd like to share around this space, this like really rich and generative space of being between agreement and alignment when it comes to what you're doing at Craig or otherwise?

Speaker 1 (22:33)
Yeah, you know, well, you know, I could share way too many personal examples of where ⁓ getting far more specific about, you know, use easy language, what by whens and getting, you know, that it's not that I just want to start exercising more, you know, getting really specific about it, for example. But I think, you know, maybe another good one would be to actually even talk about this massive expansion that we're planning, ⁓ where

⁓ Even just getting clear through the strategic and long-range ⁓ plan for Craig Hospital that held steadfast the mission of the organization ⁓ didn't arm the culture to the extent that although culture I think changes the minute you bring new people in. I mean from the front line up but there's a sort of sense of what's that core that you have to hold on to while you're always moving forward.

And over a couple years through all the COVID time, we did continue to work on our ⁓ long range strategy and the plan knowing that we needed to expand based on being out of space more than anything else. But as we did all of our discovery work, a couple things back to data emerged. I we had this thing called a wait list, for example. So how's this for interesting data? And we knew our wait list was 50 to 60 deep of people waiting.

to get to Craig. About half of them are ready now if we had the capacity to get them in. And the other half are sitting waiting for bones to heal or other complications to be managed before they can actively engage in rehab. And at the same time that you hear those things and you have to say, we could do so much more for so many more people if we were able to expand capacity and then we're going to be putting in a

new unit that will ⁓ help manage some of the complexity that happens medically when you're no longer needing an ICU, but you're not totally ready to do four to six hours of rehabilitation. We'll be doing that as well. ⁓ But there are people who think, why are you doing this? We're fine the size we are. So this whole idea of you're moving along this work. We've been moving this work.

keeping the teams as informed as we can. It's taken longer than we wanted because COVID sort of stopped everything. And of course now we've got new challenges given the cost of, you know, between inflation and now some of the newer issues that we're dealing with at a national and global level with tariffs and uncertainty of all sorts. But that you'll have people who will sit in rooms and will agree to any part of the strategy as we talk about it, whether it's sort of

organizing ⁓ us, and I say this as a clinician, a standardized approach to making sure that we're meeting our patients holistic and comprehensive needs in order to customize those approaches. here's the way that you're going to do XYZ, this one program where we are standing up that I've been told we've needed for 20 years and they're so excited that we, with really smart people, have figured out this thing around the rehabilitation elements. ⁓

that we want for Craig Hospital, which people get, but it wasn't apparent. And so people will agree. And we've been marching down this road now for two years. And then you'll hit this bump in the road and you realize they nodded in the room, but there is either sand in the gears or that can get thrown in or folks will, there'll be people, heck no, I'm not doing it. It's not the way that I, you And so then you have to.

You sometimes feel like you take a couple steps forward and then you have to take steps back. And I think this idea of ⁓ trying to figure out how we get everyone aligned is where I think the team is now, this conversation we just had recently. And it strikes me even sitting here talking around this is would there be some real value in, ⁓ and I think there is in remaining curious about the resistance. And what does it look like as a leader to remain curious instead of, God, you're going to do this.

⁓ this is happening again and this one now doesn't want to do it. And it just dawned on me that through asking sort of ⁓ good questions that really are born out of curiosity, not out of your being difficult, what might actually happen in terms of their willingness to go along? What might we uncover around some real things we hadn't thought about that are?

tricky on a thing like this. I think that's one that we're, it's taken two years and there comes this point you're like, oh my gosh, it'd be so much easier if we could just do it. But you'll get, what you're gonna get is you're gonna get compliance, not commitment, and it'll fall apart if we don't take the slow road to get it done this way.

Speaker 2 (27:49)
That is such a good distinction, compliance versus commitment. I really like that language. And sometimes the resistance is just inertia, right? People are back to business as usual. They're really busy and committed to what they do. And so participating in this bigger effort isn't necessarily at the top of their list. There's that, know, like how can you, I like your push to stay curious about, is it, you know, active resistance or is it just that they're kind of pulled back to what they're called to do?

And we need to find ways to create space for them to participate in this transformation or this expansion that you're doing at Craig.

Speaker 1 (28:26)
I think that's part of it, but I also think that, and it's a human tendency that we've got to just sort of say it is, which is this is the way we do things around here. This is the way I do things around here. And that things can get caught up in the sense that you're taking away my autonomy in some way. I think that what, and then certainly in healthcare, I mean, I've been a doc 40 years, this boy has.

this field changed over 40 years. And what I, at the same time that we have complicated some things for sure, and we've complicated complexity, there's no doubt, I would say, if we're really being honest, that there were things where we were like, heck no, I'm not doing it, that have actually, in the end, made things easier for us. I can remember when ⁓ electronic health records came along, and I walked into the exam room, and there was this monitor and a keyboard sitting on the desk. This for Kaiser goes back to 1998.

Speaker 2 (29:23)
But

Kaiser was an industry leader in that space.

Speaker 1 (29:26)
We

were the leaders in the space and I remember thinking, I'm going to have to learn how to insinuate this into the doctor patient relationship. But pretty quickly, ⁓ once we really got the system up and moving and we started talking about things like ⁓ desktop access to desktop information, ⁓ I didn't have to keep all these facts in my head. ⁓

⁓ I can actually, for the common things I do, I can make pre-printed, I called them notes, sort of using the paper analogy, printed. I can actually make templates of the stuff that I typically do. And then it's just filling in blanks. So there's a time saver in that. The other thing I thought though is this thing, once I really understood how the system works, is this is gonna make me a better doctor. It's gonna make me a better doctor, because I'm gonna forget less, because I've got the prompt sitting there.

And then as these things have become far more sophisticated, even in terms of just diagnoses suggesting meds in some sort of tiered way, what I said it did for me, I said, this is going to allow me not to be just a better doctor in terms of the technical aspects of medicine, but I can really, really practice the art of medicine. I can get to know my patients better because I'm not sort of trying to live on several levels at the same time.

I think we're facing that now with artificial intelligence. There's no fear factor with it, but the ways in which agentic AI, as they call it, will free up nurses, free up therapists, free up clinicians to do that, to really get to know and be in connection with patients instead of thinking, I've got to go back and chart all this because there's some co-pilot or whatever, all these names of these things that are listening in and capturing information ahead of time.

Because I know what patients and families want more. And even our team members, I know what they want more than anything else is to be seen by us and to see us. And when we're trying to keep a million things in our head because we didn't have access to this sort of technology, because I didn't at the beginning. You had a book sometimes. You the Wash manual, this Washington manual we carried around in our pockets as residents.

where you're looking up doses and things. So long way of saying that, you know, as an example, that there are people who are hell no, I won't go at the beginning. And sometimes in this gentle way that you start to really move people along, helping us create a story of what's happening. ⁓ On the other side, two things, maybe it's not so bad, or we'll fix what didn't go well, or not only is it not so bad, it's actually better.

Speaker 2 (32:12)
And I feel like also your call to action from earlier is so important in this space of technology adoption. We are faced with this in a lot of industries around AI and others is as a leader, you can't just insist on compliance. You have to invest in building commitment. Because if you don't do that, then people will find a way around it.

Speaker 1 (32:34)
they'll sabotage you in a heartbeat. ⁓

Speaker 2 (32:37)
Well, some of it's not even sabotage, some of it is protecting, as you say, their autonomy, right, like protecting their space and what they know. And it's like, they put so much time and energy into that. And you just want to say if you would put that time and energy into just learning how to do this, we make all of our lives so much easier. But that is not how people work. That is not the human condition.

Speaker 1 (32:56)
That's not how works.

No,

not at all.

Speaker 2 (33:02)
Well, these have been some great reflections on your leadership journey through the failure gap in some things and moving from agreement to alignment. I'm curious if you think about two, three, four, like hot tips for people about as a leader, if you're trying to build alignment to get people from you just saying, it because I told you so compliance into really authentic commitment to continuing to grow and change and to do things differently.

Are there any suggestions you have for leaders who are trying to navigate this?

Speaker 1 (33:35)
I think the first is ⁓ remember your mission as sort of corny as that may sound and out of that to develop why questions, know, really to start and it's a different kind of curiosity, but why is it important? Why might this help us? What you can get to the what it might do later, but why is this important based on who we serve or the conditions we find ourselves in?

at a given time. I think that's the first is never lose. Don't get drift away from mission is that the second is ⁓ I think there's a lot of ego that can get tied up as the leader and thinking, well, I'm unaccomplished because I couldn't check boxes today. And ⁓ sometimes the real magic in my view is going through the process of

moving people along the journey. You learn a ton about yourself, you learn a ton about them as individuals, and you often come up with a heck of a lot better process when you do that. You know, we know that all the time, whatever those 99 % of the ideas that may pop into my head on a given day, you know, maybe one of them is halfway decent, and then we need to like have others come together to help us shape it into something good. So I think there's, within all of that is a real

need to check your own ego needs around this as a leader at the door. And if you've got to deal with boards who may be putting pressure on you in some ways, is being able to bring them along too in terms of the journey as to why things may be taking longer. So think that's the, so there's some patience and persistence in that is what I'd say is the second. ⁓ The third thing I would say is ⁓ make sure you celebrate the small wins. remember that data thing.

I remember sitting at that meeting around this big table and I said, guys, look what just happened. got to, you all were asking, we're in it. We got it done and listen, just, you can't hear yourself. ⁓ But what I am hearing is real interest in this and I'm hearing other questions and can you give us this kind of data? Can we do this sort of thing? And so to celebrate the wins when they happen, because I think we don't do that. We get so focused on the end.

that we don't, we're not celebrating along the thing about how we get there. And then probably the most important is we don't have all the ideas. fact, you know, I sort of think about my role as to, you know, certainly inspire a shared vision, to support a shared vision, to reassure, to barrier bust where we need to.

And then sometimes you do have to call the questions like, we're doing this. That should be rare that we're doing that. So that last one involves a huge amount of inclusion, a huge amount of inclusion. Make sure you've got diverse voices around tables when you're trying to solve complex problems, because they invariably get complicated. And then we complicate complexity and really make it a math. ⁓

⁓ But it works better if you can make sure that you're asking yourself who's not here, whose voice isn't here that needs to be represented. And my belief in terms of the one voice that we almost always leave out are our customers, our patients in my case, but also our team members. You know, we've got to think about that we serve the people who serve the people. And we have to keep both of those folks in mind. So making sure that you're

trying to solve problems through a really inclusive mindset, which can feel slow, but what it actually is, is going slow and then you will get accelerated movement, know, the whole go slow to go fast thing. So I think those are the four, remember your mission, patience and persistence. ⁓ I forgot my third one already. And what was the third? I forgot the third one. And the fourth one being an inclusive approach to ⁓ solving big gnarly.

Speaker 2 (37:37)
Well

Speaker 1 (37:44)
And they don't even have to be gnarly because they're bad. They're just good. They're just fun and great problems to have.

Speaker 2 (37:50)
Your third one was to keep your ego in check.

Speaker 1 (37:53)
Keep your ego in check.

Speaker 2 (37:55)
Well, I'm summarizing, but that's what it was. Thank you. Yeah. I think part of the takeaway for me from this too is to remember, and you're the doctor, so I might get these drugs wrong, but don't go for the cheap dopamine hit, but really invest in the serotonin that comes from creating a community around something and bringing people forward together. And you'll go further faster in that way.

Speaker 1 (37:57)
Okay, good.

It really do. And it's more fun. It really is. We both know these are some, these can be some pretty isolating and lonely roles if we choose to make them that way. And in some cases that they just are isolating and lonely in terms of where you can and where you can't necessarily discuss things or how you show up. Cause you feel like you're constantly on, but you have to put all that aside and service to the mission and the people you serve.

Speaker 2 (38:49)
Yeah, and do the work, right? ⁓

Speaker 1 (38:51)
and

know that not every do the work. That's right. Like Addison said.

Speaker 2 (38:55)
It's what shows up dressed in overalls, right? ⁓

Speaker 1 (38:57)
That's

right. That's right. There you go. think I think a lot of us look pretty good in overalls. We should learn more. ⁓

Speaker 2 (39:04)
We should have an overall day at the office, I think. We're gonna do that. Well, hey, last question for you. If you could get some community that you're involved in, whether it's your family, your work community, the world writ large, if you could get people organized to align around something together, what would that be? What's your ambition?

Speaker 1 (39:29)
goodness. you know what's so funny, as you asked the question, I felt myself getting choked up. ⁓ We are in a really funky time. I don't know what else. I could say stronger language, but that probably is the G-rated version. It's a really crazy time right now. And ⁓ I've been really thinking a lot about this.

Speaker 2 (39:45)
Let's go with funky.

Speaker 1 (39:55)
beautiful young thing that we have called this democracy that is the United States and what it's been able to do for those of us who are here, those who might come, let alone our impact around the globe. And if there was a community that I would get together, it's this idea, and it's the very last thing I said around inclusion too, in terms of problem solving is to make sure that we are ⁓ creating a really big table.

And I don't mean big full of everybody who thinks like me, because we know that that doesn't work, but a table where there is the opportunity for all voices to be heard and for us to come together and get real clear about what is it that we love and what is it that we cherish that is absolutely worth fighting for. And it would be that we. Continually work on this back in pursuit of better or maybe even just in pursuit of good in some cases.

this thing called the Constitution. It's a beautiful document. And ⁓ it's, we don't, we are about as imperfect a union as we were when we formed this thing, you know, years ago. And that's just all part of it. So I think that's what I would wish. And it's interesting because that's really big, but in some ways I wish the same thing in my little place called Craig Hospital is that through the lens of being able to hear all the voices.

Speaker 2 (41:02)
That's okay,

Speaker 1 (41:19)
that we serve that mission better than we do. So through the lens of hitting and creating this narrative of shared beliefs that we'll work our way through this really troubling and bewildering and uncertain time that we're living in. It's big, aspirational, but I don't think it's impossible. It just is gonna take a lot of ego checking, a lot of patience and persistence, and a lot of getting clear about the mission.

Speaker 2 (41:49)
And I think, know, gravitas over arrogance, right? And this idea of checking your ego and staying curious and staying open and staying positive. And it really is a beautiful, as you put it, experiment in democracy. And I think there's a lot of opportunity for us to continue to be in pursuit of better. So I appreciate that call to action. And Jandel, I've never known you to dream small. So I think that's appropriate vision.

Speaker 1 (42:17)
Well, ⁓ may it be so from how they say my lips to God's ears. I suspect from a lot of people's lips to God's ears.

Speaker 2 (42:17)
Thank you. Thank you.

Yeah, for sure. For sure. Well, hey, I really appreciate this conversation. It's been so wonderful to get your thinking and your experiences with moving from agreement to alignment, what it takes, how you think about it as a leader. And I think that you are echoing a lot of what we believe at Carrickans Group, which you know, we like to say to go fast, go alone, to go far, go together, to go far fast, get aligned. And if you can get aligned around some of these things, then I think you take ground much faster.

Thank you for your contribution to this dialogue. I appreciate it. And to everybody out there who's been listening, thank you for taking the opportunity to get to know the amazing work that Jandel and the folks over at Craig Hospital are doing. It really is phenomenal. Check them out as well. They have a lot of big plans in the works and it's gonna be really exciting to see Jandel where you take the organization in the next few years.

Speaker 1 (43:18)
Thank you. Thank you so much for this time.

Speaker 2 (43:21)
Yeah, thanks everybody and we'll see you the next time on the Failure Gap.