The Failure Gap

Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (00:00)
Hello and welcome to The Failure Gap where we talk with leaders about closing the space between agreement and alignment. We love talking with interesting people and today we're joined by April Whitson. April is the VP of HR for ABB and she's also the author of The Stay Challenge, a leader's guide to managing unwanted turnover and regrettable retention. She writes and talks about the elements that create an irresistible workplace culture. She's developed cutting edge programs to create culture employees won't want to quit.

Her approach is direct and simple, putting leaders in the driver's seat while helping them along the journey. Bringing real world examples and proven solutions to her audiences, April is changing the workplace for the better, one leader at a time. April, welcome to the Failure Gap. Thanks, Julie. I'm happy to be here. Yeah, I'm excited to have this conversation because retention and culture and employee satisfaction, these are all things that lots of leaders agree to and have trouble aligning to getting done. So I'm looking forward to it.

Before we dig into that though, why don't you just give our audience a sense of yourself and how you came into your role today? Sure. ⁓ So I've been in the HR space a long time, ⁓ upwards of close to 30 years now with a little bit of a break. And I actually got my education in computer science. And so I actually did not see myself being in HR. I'm not even really sure I understood what HR was at the time of going to school.

But I found myself wanting to get my foot in the door at a company that I had heard had a great ⁓ culture, was a great place to be. And so I took any opportunity I could get, which was in the HR space. And I fell in love with the HR function. And I've just stayed pretty much my entire career. I took a few years to go into manufacturing. So was in manufacturing management where I led a second shift operation in the aerospace.

industry. So a lot of fun, a lot of learning for me, learning how to build airplanes, how to paint airplanes, the whole flight process, just a lot of really fun things to learn. And then I spent a little bit of time as a Six Sigma Black Belt where I spent most of that time specializing in lean manufacturing. So relaying out manufacturing facilities in a more lean way.

And ⁓ then from there, I went into L &D for a little bit and then back into HR leadership. And I've been in the HR leadership space now for about 14 years since the break from HR. And I've been fortunate enough to, I guess, put myself in situations and apply for new jobs to progress in my career. So I've definitely started at a very entry level.

and have managed to just kind of work my way into being in the space that I am now, which is a ⁓ leader of a team that's running almost $2 billion around the world. So it's a lot of fun. enjoy it ⁓ mostly because I get to meet a lot of really cool people. We have some amazing people that work for us and I get to help leaders create amazing work experiences for them. I love that. And I love that in your book,

One of the things that you talk about with, you have case studies around Sarah and Bob, and you have this idea of regrettable retention as well as unwanted turnover and helping leaders to really understand how they can contribute to making sure that neither one of those things come up is part of that creating a great workspace and creating a great workplace for their people. And it sounds like you've got some really amazing boots on the ground experiences with what culture can do.

for an employee population? Yes. I have seen my own personal experiences that I've had as well as just observing the experiences that other people have had definitely over the years where culture is really good and culture has been lacking. And I tend to believe that culture really happens.

at a team level, a leader and their teams level. I am not a big fan of saying a culture is something that you do from the top down, from the CEO level or the C-suite, because I think they give a vision, they give guidance. ⁓ They might have the ones who identify values, et cetera, but the true culture and what people are gonna feel when they come to work every day and those experiences that they're gonna have when they come to work every day is really on the shoulders of the leader.

And so I've seen leaders do it really well and I've seen leaders who have struggled for sure to make that happen. Both, like you said, on the unwanted turnover side, as well as what I call regrettable retention, ⁓ which is actually, in my opinion, maybe a bigger issue that we face in the workplace where we just keep people a little longer than we need to. Absolutely. We see it happen a lot. I'm curious when you think about leaders generally agree that it's a good idea to focus on culture. ⁓

and they struggle sometimes to align to that. What do you think gets in the way of leaders really being able to take action and both articulate and build culture?

That's a really good question. ⁓ I think time gets in the way, at least in the minds of leaders. believe leaders sometimes can use that as an excuse that time gets in the way. They just don't have enough time to put into establishing what that culture looks like or developing their people or really seeing them, spending time to get to know them. All the things that really I believe are super important. ⁓ I'm not sure if that's real.

I just think it's a prioritization problem. So for me, if we prioritize it, we find the time. It's like anything. Whatever we put our mind to doing, if we prioritize, if we say this is the most important thing I'm going to accomplish today, then we will make it happen and we won't let time be an excuse. So I hear time is the biggest issue. What I see is prioritization or lack of. That's interesting. Yeah. And I think people sometimes have a...

mistaken perception of how they're managing their time around those things. I'm curious if you think that there are challenges around definition. Leaders might not even really know what it means to build culture.

I do think we have some of that. And again, I think there's a ⁓ bit of a misunderstanding around if culture is just company-wide or if culture is really something that I can have within my own team. I do believe that some leaders get it. Some people, some leaders struggle to really understand how they can impact it. So there is a level of education that needs to happen, which is what I spend a lot of my time doing in the corporate space as an HR leader. I'm not, I'm not.

hiring and firing per se is what is typically the case for HR or what people perceive we do. In my position, I don't do that, but I spend a lot of my time helping leaders understand that they do have that responsibility and they do have an impact on that. And then I help them to find ways that they can improve it because there's a bit of misunderstanding as to who really does own it. And also there are leaders who

want their employees to be more involved in that process, who often times will say, well, this employee just doesn't have the right attitude or this employee doesn't want to have a sense of belonging. They just want to come and do their job leave. So what am I supposed to do? That's not my job. That's not my responsibility. Or it's not my responsibility to help them grow. It's not my responsibility to help them climb the ladder if that's what they want to do. They have to have that ambition themselves. And I tend to believe that that's not true.

as well. I think it's a two-way street. think we have to help them. I think they have to have the ambition, but we have to help unlock doors or give them guidance or give them ⁓ honest feedback sometimes because maybe they're not ready for the next position and someone needs to tell them. I attributed it to the person who thinks they can sing really well and then they go on national television to perform and maybe someone should have told them that they maybe weren't quite ready.

Maybe they need to train a little bit longer before they put themselves out there, right? ⁓ And so in the workplace, they think we have to help our leaders understand they also need to do the same. They need to be honest. They need to be ⁓ constructive in that feedback. They need to help celebrate along the way with them, ⁓ but also expect some ambition from the employee as well. So it does take the employee, but it takes the leader more, in my opinion. And it's...

A big part of, in my mind, the shift for HR as well. think in the HR space, we really need to become better coaches to these leaders that will help them move in the direction that they need to be moving. Because if we're not doing that, then oftentimes a leader's not getting that input or that help either. sounds like you're tapping into a couple of things. One is that it's a shared responsibility to have employees be engaged and to build culture you can't do by yourself.

but it's also not fully on employees to figure it out for themselves. Leaders play a really important role and probably an outsized role in nurturing and cultivating the culture that is desired in the organization. Is that fair to say? Yes, I like the way you said that. You're so concise. You're so concise with it. I wonder too, I feel like I was hearing you say that leaders need to sometimes

get some help and get some support. I don't know about you, but I have often seen leaders really want culture or employee engagement or employee satisfaction to be someone else's job. Like, that's HR's job or that's the change team's job or that's the comms team job, And what you say is that your role can be to help coach and develop leaders, but it's their role to build the culture that ⁓ is best in service to the goals of the organization.

Yes, that was well said. You just nailed it. Like I could have said it better. I believe that 100%. And the shift from HR and the HR space should be allowing most companies to be able to have kind of that structure, I hope. I know that's the case in our business is where we really, I mean, the shift from the traditional personnel to business partner concept and being able to really adapt our HR.

acumen, our business acumen to help leaders as a partner, led us in the right direction. Now I think it's even more so of shifting kind of to that coaching space, that ability for us to give that leader some coaching and ⁓ feedback and ideas, help them brainstorm new ideas, new ways to do things, talk through the challenges that they're seeing with different employee populations.

to come up with the right ways to solve maybe the problem that they're facing. You know, April, when you think about leaders who you've worked with, and maybe some of them really very much agree, like they wanted to do better, but they were struggling to really get aligned and to change their own behaviors, what are some of the tools or techniques or approaches that you give them to help them along the way, to help them to do a better job as leaders of holding that space?

to create the culture and the values, articulation on your team that they want to see? The most important thing I give coaching on is effective one-on-ones. So that really is really the basis of my book. And I really believe that that is step number one. If we are not getting that right, it's going to be difficult to do really a whole lot with your team.

It's the best way for us to know who's motivated. It's the best way for us to build a relationship that will allow us to hopefully manage the regrettable retention and not have so much of that. It's the best way for us to know what emotional state and how are our employees showing up and in what way do I need to serve them in order for them to be the best that they are, single best that they can be every time they come in. And so getting that right.

is step number one in my mind. And I do end up having to assist ⁓ the leaders with how to structure that. How do I allow enough time in the day or in the week or in the month to do that with all of my employees? ⁓ Because sometimes span of control does get in the way and we have so many employees per manager sometimes that it can seem overwhelming. It can seem daunting. It can seem like it's not doable.

just working on that time management piece, that prioritization side of things, being able to look at calendars and say, well, what are you spending your time on? Are there meetings that maybe you don't necessarily have to be in? You could send someone else to that meeting and you could use that time to better build that relationship with the people in your team. So really just helping sit through those conversations I think is step number one for sure. And then of course, once we have established those really good routines, really good relationships with the employee, then

Then we start really digging into, what are those conversations like when it comes to knowing who on the team is performing, who on the team is not performing? How do we motivate those two different populations potentially? Because we need to motivate both, but we do it in a very different way. So then we start digging into what is the problem area? What is the aspect of the team that we really need to focus in on? And we'll start drilling in on that just through my own one-on-ones with those leaders.

You know, I would love to dig into this idea of regrettable retention with you a little bit because I'm sure that people listening have experienced it. I know as a leader, I've fallen into that trap of agreeing that somebody's probably not where they need to be, but I'm also hesitant to do anything about it for whatever reason. And I always think I've never once moved somebody along and thought, I don't know if that was the right decision. It's always been, I wish I'd done that six months ago.

or a year ago or however long it's been. So I've agreed that I should do it and I haven't done it. And I'm just curious, you may have had that experience as a leader yourself, maybe that informed Bob, the case study in your book, which I loved, but talk to us a little bit about that idea of leaders, you kind of participating in regrettable retention, holding onto people who they know are disengaged or that they need to move along for whatever reason. What do you think is happening there?

I believe there's a couple of things happening. do believe that when there are talent shortages, we are as leaders nervous about having no person in the seat. So we hang onto something even though they are not performing on all cylinders, right? If they're, if they at least are operating at about a 50 % productivity rate, we think it's better than nothing.

So I do believe that there is a mindset around, know, what, how long is it gonna take us to actually replace that person? Is the talent out there? How am I gonna go about it? That fear of what that can look like to the business does hold leaders back for sure. It held me back. I've had those same experiences where ⁓ it's like, how difficult is it gonna be to replace them? Can I afford that? The other thing that I see very often, I also, ⁓

somewhat recently even have experienced this personally in my leadership role, we want to give more time. We think we can turn them around. We think we can give them one more coaching session. We think we're being honest with maybe what our expectations are or saying things that should imply that they need to perform better or show up better. They may not be receiving it that way, but we think we're saying it that way.

And so we just hang on because we have hope. It's really this empty hope that we carry, but we have hope, right? And I think that's human nature. I think we just always want to see good. We always want to impress upon people that you are good enough. I personally recently have experienced that where we hung on to someone a little longer than we needed to. ⁓

the opportunity to turn that person around was just pro, I know it's not ever gonna show up, but there was just this little bit in me that was like, know they're, you this is one of the detriments sometimes to knowing your people really well too, right? Like you need to know your people and then you get very connected. And it's like, know this person, I know their family situation, I know their, you know, their story. And I just can't do that to them because I know what kind of impact that could have on their lives. And

And so we have to balance that. As leaders, we're going to always have those feelings. least good leaders are going to always have those feelings, right? They're going to always have those connections with their people. But I also think we just have to make some decisions that sometimes are a little bit challenging around ⁓ when it's time to make the change. And it doesn't always have to mean that we

don't employ them or we lay them off or we terminate them, sometimes it's also just a matter of finding a different seat on the bus. ⁓ But I think we're also very slow to do that as well, again, because they come with a skill set. They come with a skill set. They're getting something done. So we hang on to that. I think there's... you've talked about something's better than nothing if you're in a talent shortage situation. So do we want to let the warm body go?

when we don't know if we're gonna be able to get a warmer body? Windblades. And this idea of having hope in people and wanting to just continue to give people an opportunity because you've invested in the relationship and so you want to believe that they can do the role or that they can want to do the role sometimes even, right? And there might also be, I know for me, I don't know about for you, a little bit of pride involved, right?

that I should be able to turn this person around or I should be able to get this person where they need to be. And so if they're not getting there, it's a little bit on me too, taking ownership or sometimes a little too far. I don't know, you experienced that? Yes, I think that is a great call out. It's a great point. I definitely have seen it. Definitely see it. Also, more importantly, I see it when it's a relatively new hire.

Right. So you just hired someone within a year or maybe it's within two years. And that truly could be a reflection of my ability to hire the right talent or hire the right person. And so it could be a pride thing as well. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I agree. ⁓ I mean, I would say I have experienced that and ⁓ I don't think that I'm alone in that as a leader and that you don't, you don't want to have to say that you made the wrong choice and you want to believe that you can get people to develop. And yes.

Checking that ego can be, ⁓ for me, way of unlocking the space between agreeing that the person's not doing what they need to do and they're not contributing the way they need to contribute and getting into alignment that we have to do something. And that something might be hard. Yes. Yes, I completely agree. I completely agree. None of this is easy. None of it is easy, that's for sure. And I think the reason why I like to use the phrase regrettable retention is

because and sort of to what you said earlier, later we will reflect. And most of the time we reflect on that as a leader and regret that we took that long, right? So it's getting our minds wrapped around this notion of no one wants to live with regrets. In any part of our life, we don't like to accept that there's gonna be regretful things that happen. It's part of life, but are there ones we can control? And in this case,

I believe who we keep in the organization and how we build those relationships and motivate those people and build that culture is definitely something we don't have to regret if we just will prioritize what we're doing to make it better. You know, years ago I heard somebody say, don't fear failure, but be terrified of regret. Yes. I think that's a nice way to think about it, right?

Yes, I love that. Yes. That's great. That's perfect. That's exactly that's exactly the reality that we face, especially, you know, the other thing that maybe I didn't talk I know I didn't talk about was the impact that that regrettable retention has on the rest of the organization, right. So we've talked a lot about like the leader and the leaders responsibility and how the leader might feel and why it might happen. What we forget a lot of times is how much impact that

person or people in the organization that should not continue will have on the whole culture, the whole organization. can be really, really negative experience for others on the team. When we allow one person to underperform and others are having to pick up the slack or they're having to work more. And we hear a lot about work-life balance. We hear a lot about well-being in the workplace and things like that. And one of the things that I continue to hear in our organization is that

Well-being and workplace balance is not necessarily about if I'm turning work off on time, if I'm getting some exercise, if I am balancing time with my family and time at work. That's not actually what people are saying that I'm hearing. What I'm hearing more about is we don't have the right staffing. have either we have too few people and the ones that are here having to overwork because we haven't backfilled, we haven't filled positions, we have too many open jobs, the talent.

a on talent is still an issue, or we've just chosen to live in this understaffed world. And on top of that, we have regrettable retention in the team. And those people are bringing others down, and it's causing every other person on the team to have this imbalance because they're having to work harder or more to keep up what needs to get done for the customer. ⁓

making those connections, making leaders aware of those connections between, it's a pride thing for you. Yes, it's something that you can work on as a leader. Yes, these are all very, very important pieces. But also just looking at it from the vantage point of your employees is super powerful too, because they are also ⁓ being impacted by regrettable retention. Yeah, I think it's a good reminder that you have an obligation not just to the individual, but to the team. And how do you help the team to, you know...

that you are taking action that needs to be taken. Curious April, as a leader yourself, how do you move yourself from agreement into alignment and taking action on things? When you're in this situation where you see something that needs to be handled, but it's a little dicey, what do you do for yourself to get where you need to be? That's a great question as well. Self-reflecting. That's always fun. ⁓ Digging deep, digging deep.

I am a thinker. also really...

try really hard. I'm not always good at it. So I'm definitely not perfect and continue to be a work in progress. ⁓ But I try really hard to look at both sides. I try to look at ⁓ if I don't do this, what happens? If I do do this, what happens? How can I ensure that ⁓ if I'm going to stand on the hill, especially if it's things that are

being challenged for one reason or another by others, and I'm having to stand up for a decision that I think is important or make a change that I believe is important, I try to look at it from all sides and really be prepared to take whatever ⁓ might be thrown at me. So if people are gonna challenge me, if they're gonna question me, if they're gonna ask a lot of questions, I just wanna take the time to think and process first how I will respond to those different things. And then,

really just self-reflect and go, okay, is this worth it? Is this really worth it to take the time and to move in this direction or is it not? I overthinking this? Am I thinking I'm on the right path, but maybe I'm not, right? Because I've done that before. I've definitely said, I'm all in, going this direction. And then when I sit back and I really process all of it, I have to back up and go, you know what, I was wrong.

I agree, we shouldn't go that direction or I don't need to go that direction. ⁓ Because oftentimes I think we can be very quick with our thought process or decision making. And if we can step back and really think first, I think it helps. ⁓ I'm not really good at things like meditation or taking long walks by the beach while I don't live by the beach. Yeah, the beach is a long way away. It's a long ways from you and I for sure, yes.

You know, you bring to mind a conversation that I had a while back with someone about the fact that you can't just be in love with the outcome or the possibility. You have to be in love with the work it's going to take to get there. And I feel like that's a little bit what you're tapping into, that you can't just think about how great it might be to go in a direction. You also have to think about, am I going to be willing to lean into that process? Am I going to be willing to do that work?

in the time and you put in the effort to get where I think we want to be. Because if you're not in love with that part of it, or at least in like with it, maybe we'll say, it's going to be very difficult to get there. Yes. Yeah, I do agree with that completely. I think that's a big part of it. ⁓ Because we're going to have to live with the outcomes, right? And so we definitely need to think about, is that something that I'm going to love or like for sure? ⁓

Again, be willing to take the criticisms or the feedback or the questions that come at you, because that tends to be often what I have experienced in the past is when I truly believe that I have this inner alignment with a decision that needs to take place, a path that I need to go down, I can question that if I get too much pushback.

then I can question my decision. And I don't like when I get in that place of questioning the decision because that just tells me that I didn't put enough thought into it beforehand, right? Because if I put enough thought into it and I truly do believe that the reason I'm doing this, the outcome is far greater by taking this path. ⁓ If I believe that completely, it shouldn't matter who comes at me or what comes at me, right? Because I should have that faith and that confidence that

This is the right decision because the outcome is needed. Yeah, driving towards the outcome and maybe keeping that focus on the outcome is what I'm hearing too, that that's helpful to stay in alignment and to be true to what you want to do. Yes, absolutely. Well, we've covered a lot of ground here around how people can, especially when it comes to matters of culture and employee engagement and teams, how can leaders really

take the opportunity to move into better alignment around how they can lead in ways that bring those things forward. And we started with you talking about timing, like maybe really do a hard analysis of your time and how you're spending it and how you're investing it in your team. You mentioned the power of one-on-ones and I love that in your book that one-on-ones are such a powerful tool for leaders. And yes, sometimes scale and span of control and so forth.

can be a challenge for that, but those relationships are so crucial for knowing if somebody, for example, might be ⁓ leaving in undesired turnover or staying in this space of regrettable retention. So it gets you better in touch with what's happening with your employees at that level. And I think it also, those one-on-one relationships can help you to see when somebody is having a negative impact on the team as a whole, and you need to move, you need to think about that.

And then we talked about checking your ego a little bit as a leader and not letting pride get in the way of taking action. Whether it's the pride of wanting to have made the right choice when you hired somebody or believing that you should be the person who can get that person to develop. Both of those things can get in the way of getting aligned and doing what you need to do as a leader to keep driving the culture and the values and the team engagement that you're looking for. What else comes to mind for you? If you were, if somebody were to say, what are a couple of things I can really do as a leader?

to make sure that I'm aligning and that I'm doing what I need to do to make sure that my employees are engaged and then building a culture that they're never gonna wanna quit. Is there anything else that comes to mind for you that you'd want people to take away from this conversation? Yes, I think Julie, one of the things that we need to push a little bit more and especially when it comes to alignment. So we could dig into alignment from a leadership perspective. What are we aligning to?

I believe one of the other very important things a leader needs to do is clearly be able to articulate their purpose and their values for themselves. And if a leader's purpose is not necessarily aligned with the principles of leadership, then we should also be having a conversation. As an HR professional, I want to have a conversation with that leader because often

We promote leaders from very technical roles or they've kind of come up through the ranks and we think that they have the potential to lead. And then we get them into these leadership positions. And if the purpose that they have is really driven towards just strictly an ROI or a certain profit margin or some kind of KPI that is not tied to the people themselves.

then those, that there's probably a misalignment when it comes to the job title of leadership. ⁓ I think, you know, Coach K had said something to the effect of leadership is one of the occupations we teach or train on the least, but yet is an occupation that impacts the most in an organization, right? And I think because we don't train as much as we need to, we have to keep doing that.

But often, I also believe that giving that leader the opportunity to clearly align with a purpose that is driven in the direction of good values of true leadership principles is critical. If we don't do, if we don't make sure that leader has good alignment with good values and a true purpose, then probably the rest of the work we do with them won't matter. We can have

really good one-on-one conversations with an employee. But if you're not in it for the right reason, if you don't have that strong purpose there, which is to build a culture to go to quit or to build a relationship that allows your employee to every Sunday night look forward to coming to work on Monday morning, if that's not a purpose that you're aligned to, ⁓ then we need to ask ourselves, should I be in leadership? So I would say that's another point we should definitely help.

leaders who are listening out there to remember. And so if I bring that down from sort of abstract to concrete, as an example, when you have a technical leader who's been promoted, sometimes their leadership purpose might be something that would sound like advancing the technology in a meaningful way or delivering on revenue goals, Sort of very technical and almost tactical.

Yes. Purpose is that, and they haven't yet grown into that broader leadership purpose of being the person who creates the space for all of those other things to happen. that right? Does that kind of click it down a level? Yes, absolutely. I think that's perfect. It's getting them to getting to that space where we truly believe that our role as a leader is to inspire, right? We want to make sure that we give some inspiration to the team. We bring out the best in them.

We bring them to a space where they can truly be who they are when they come to work every single day and add the value that we know that they can add to the organization, whether that means developing your products or selling something or servicing products, whatever that is, that leader needs to build that safe space where that person feels inspired and valued or they're seen.

That's the purpose that a leader has when they start work every Monday morning, that that's what they aspire to or align to. ⁓ Then culture will happen. Great culture will happen within that team. Great culture that people don't want to quit. That's right. Too good to quit. Too good to quit. Too legit to quit. Yeah, I can't do that, but too good to quit. There you go. Well, you did a wonderful job in your book of, I think, exploring and unpacking.

some of these things and I'd encourage people to go out and check that out as well because there's some great tools and resources in there about how as a leader you can lean into some of these spaces. Last question for you, April, as we think about the big picture and if you could get the world aligned or your business aligned or your leaders aligned to something, what would you like for people to take on in terms of challenging themselves to move from agreeing that something's a good idea to getting aligned and doing something about it for themselves and their team?

goodness, I think it comes back to what we talked about around just building upon this whole idea of purpose and outcome, right? I think if we can get leaders to just sit down and reflect on that, just process that, take some notes, brainstorm some ideas for themselves, dig deeper into who they are as a leader, and make sure that that purpose that they have really does line up with what is the outcome you want to see?

back into that. I mean, if you want to go forward with an outcome that's really tied to we all are after a great bottom line. Everybody, myself included, I want to see a great bottom line, you want to see a great bottom line. But realizing that without those people, we will not have a great bottom line, right. And so how as a leader can I tap into what is my purpose for coming to work every single Monday and working, working as hard as I can during that week to build that

culture that employees are going to give 100 % of their time so we can achieve the business bottom lines, right? That we want to achieve the profitability that we want to see. So if all leaders will do that, we will make some huge progress in the world. Just focus. It's all good. I agree. Putting some time to it, putting pen to paper. I'm a big believer in actually taking the time to write things down. So I love that call to action for all of our listeners to really reflect on your leadership purpose.

consider putting pen to paper around it and seeing how you might articulate that to your team, to your colleagues, or just to yourself, whatever works for you. April, this has been such a great conversation about what it means to really move from agreement to alignment around the idea of employee engagement and culture and values. And some of the sticking points for leaders around, there is time in the day if you choose to make the time in the day.

There is the opportunity to have hard conversations with people. You have to build those one-on-one relationships as you go forward. All of these tips and tricks along the way, I think are really valuable for people who are struggling to step into that space as a leader and really start building that culture that people won't want to quit. So too good to quit, the too good to quit catcher. Which I love that idea for it. To everybody who's been listening, thank you so much for joining us. It's been great. We've really enjoyed this episode of The Failure Gap.

Remember to go fast, go alone, to go far, go together, to go far fast, get aligned. Tap into your colleagues and your teammates who are also working on building a culture that's too good to quit and see how you can do that together. Thanks so much for listening. Remember to like and comment and share as you like, and we'll see you next time on the Failure Gap.